By David Perri

Greg Puciato, vocalist in Dillinger Escape Plan, is literally a huge study in contrasts. At once both physically intimidating (have you seen this guy’s arms?) and down-to-earth, Puciato embodies the duality that has come to define Dillinger Escape Plan. Though Dillinger was once known solely for the technique-on-overdrive of its full-length debut Calculating Infinity, the group has come to incorporate glitchy electro à la Aphex Twin and straight-up pop into its catalogue, both to dynamic effect. Only a guy with Puciato’s dichotomy - menacing physique and friendly demeanour - could pull it off, and that Gemini nature is why it’s always interesting to chat with the Baltimore native (though Dillinger hails from New Jersey).

During our chat backstage at Toronto’s Wakestock festival, Puciato touched upon some unique issues, from the group’s inspiring mission statement to the community that has spawned around the band. While the community point, on its face, might seem a bit cheesy, Puciato has enunciated what a lot of Dillinger fans intrinsically feel: because the band’s music is difficult and non-obvious, anyone at a Dillinger show is automatically viewed as a peer, as someone who has put in the effort to understand something that isn’t immediate. Ergo, because everyone surrounding you at a Dillinger performance gets it, there’s a sense of earned commonality there that goes deeper than just watching a show or handing over cash for a t-shirt.

And, yes, almost a year later, I’m still convinced that Ire Works will go down as one of this decade’s best records. I’m not being hyperbolic: Ire Works is a monument of achievement and, hopefully, will be viewed as such when this decade ends.

BW&BK;: Ire Works has been out for a while now. What are your thoughts on the record now that you have some space from it?

Greg Puciato: “It’s still what I feel is my favourite Dillinger record. At the time we recorded it, it was such a tumultuous time for the band. We were just happy to get through it. With the whole Chris Pennie (ex-drummer) thing, it was almost impossible to make the record. And when we were done with it, there was this feeling of, ‘Wow, we really accomplished something with this.’ But I also thought that maybe after some time I wouldn’t feel as strongly about it, maybe it was just the initial feeling of overcoming the obstacles. But, a year later, I still feel like it’s our best record and there’s nothing about it I would change in any way if I could go back. We’re just looking forward now. The record already feels old to us now, because a lot of the songs were written even a year-and-a-half before we actually recorded them. We’re at the tail-end of our touring cycle, we have probably a couple more months of touring for this record, and I’m just excited to start writing now. It’s more of what I want to do right now. We’re off of Relapse so there’s a lot of exciting things going on. I’m not in any hurry to do anything, and I don’t want to sign to anybody. It seems so unnecessary now to sign a contract that’s based on an industry model that doesn’t exist anymore. Relapse did everything they could for us and everything is cool with them, but after being on the same label for ten years it feels unbelievable to know that we could literally self-fund a CD and just put it out the way Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead did. We can do whatever we want, y’know? The fact that we managed to not get big, but big enough, means that we have enough of a cult following that people might buy just as many records from us as they would from a store. There’s no point of having a record label behind you unless you have a chance of becoming a Walmart band like Nickelback or some huge entity. We don’t really foresee that in our future. I think we’re starting to get to the point where we view bands like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead as our peers, and even bands like Aphex Twin. Those are forward-thinking bands. We see ourselves regardless of any genre of music, and we don’t see ourselves aligned just with heavy bands. Like I said before, we have a cult following and we’re not little but we’re not big. I’m happy with where we are, and if we can just maintain the same quality control over our stuff as Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead do, I’ll be happy. Trent Reznor and Radiohead have control over every single aspect of their band. Even though they’re enormous, every single thing about Nine Inch Nails feels like Nine Inch Nails. And every single thing about Radiohead feels like Radiohead. And that’s amazing considering how big those two are. For us, that’s what we want. Not having a label involved makes it so much easier. I realized that shooting videos is pretty worthless. For us, who cares about that? Our videos are never going to be on (MTV’s) TRL. And I don’t think being on at three in the morning is really worth it. When I look at YouTube, the videos that have been played the most are the videos people took on their camera-phones of us playing live. It’s not videos that we spent $10 000 of a label’s money on. I think that’s a good place for us to be, in that Radiohead/Nine Inch Nails paradigm.”

BW&BK;: Speaking of YouTube, I’ve got to ask you about that Virgin Megastore performance of ‘Sugar Coated Sour’ in New York. It’s sick. (Note: check it out at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lxwlgyhhA )

GP: “Dude, I hear about that every day (laughs). There’s not a day that goes by that I don’t hear about that (laughs). I was involved in a lawsuit and they used that video against me. And I was torn because I thought the video was really awesome but then I was worried that the video was going to be the bane of my existence (laughs). It’s funny though, because that video is the most viewed Dillinger video on the internet, by far. It’s not even close. And I didn’t know they were filming, we didn’t have make-up crews or crazy cameras or all that. It was some guy with a camera in a store and he just caught energy and something about this band that you cannot replicate with a budget and a ton of people and lighting crews and stuff. I feel that for a band like us where seeing us live is such an important part of our band, we’re never going to capture that in a studio with video cameras and that. So when I see that the Virgin Megastore video and it’s got 600,000 views and then I see the video for ‘Black Bubblegum’ has 15,000 views, I wonder why we’re even doing videos. They don’t even matter.”

BW&BK;: I think my friends and I have watched that Virgin Megastore video like a combined 3000 times or something (laughs).

GP: “It’s funny because we took a lot of time off to write Ire Works and I realized that the video was becoming almost like a viral thing. It was on websites that had nothing to do with music. The sites were like, ‘Look at this crazy band.’ And the longer we were off, the more I couldn’t believe what happened in that video. I started to feel like old people (laughs). I asked myself, ‘Is this what happens at shows?’ (laughs). I didn’t even understand that I was the person in that video and I even asked myself why I did that: it was fuckin’ pretty insane; I could have hurt somebody. But then you start playing again and you realize that’s just what happens at shows (laughs).”

BW&BK;: I think one of the most powerful moments you guys have in your whole repertoire both live and on record is ‘Sunshine The Werewolf’ and that “DESTROYER!” part. In that moment, what are you thinking on stage? Also, why do you think it connects so much with people?

GP: “It’s funny, because that was the last word written on Miss Machine. We were in the studio and ‘Sunshine The Werewolf’ was written in its entirety. The line after that, ‘There’ll be another/Just like you’ and all that stuff, it was all written. But I had to have something in that one spot. It had to be something crushing, and I couldn’t think of anything phrase that would do that part justice. It was totally a case of what word fits this kind of apocalyptic moment? When we thought about it in the context of the song, we all thought that the part needed to destroy. That word, to us, is pretty much everything we are trying to do as a band. It’s funny, because in terms of the song you can read into it a lot of different ways lyrically, but for me I feel that that’s what we’re about. But it’s not destroy in a way that you’re trying to break down old things so much, but it’s more that you’re trying to be the absolute excellence of every single thing you’re trying to do. When we’re on stage, we want to crush everybody. When we’re in the studio, we want to crush every expectation. To us, that word… if people had to encapsulate our band in a word, that would probably be what I would want. It’s funny because there wasn’t that much thought put into it, it was more that we had to record and we only had ten more minutes to figure out what word was going to go into the part. I didn’t know what we were going to do and I had a bunch of lyrics that were not impactful enough for that point. But then I thought of ‘destroyer’. At first I thought it was silly, I thought it was cartoon-ish word and taken out of context it sounds silly. But for the part in the song, it just feels like it’s the part. Like you said, something about it just connected with people in a way and now it’s the part in our set where every single person wants to sing the part in the mic with us. They’re like, ‘Me! Me! Me!’ And that’s cool, because I didn’t envision it being that way.”

BW&BK;: That part is already exceptional, and saying that it’s your mission statement makes it even more affecting.

GP: “A lot of people see our band as a ball of negative energy, or they used to see us like that. I don’t thrive off of negative energy, at all. Not that we’re super-positive as a band in our message, but I really feel we’re more about excelling and overcoming things. We’re more about that than this negative, nihilistic view or something like that. Like I said, the word ‘destroyer’ is not meant in the sense of everything sucks and fuck everything. It’s meant as going out and really doing your best at everything and crushing everything in your path. Hopefully it is inspirational for people in a way.”

BW&BK;: Is that where inspiration is still coming from for your guys, more than ten years into it?

GP: “Yeah, because as you get older you’re not as pissed anymore. I’m not, and I can’t fake it. I went through a period when we first started touring for this record where I knew, going into it, I didn’t feel the way I felt when I was like 21, 22 years old. Like 22 years old, or 21, I was fuckin’ on stage and like a ball of fire. And it wasn’t in a positive way. It was more expelling things, things I was pissed at. Where you’re a kid, you’re pissed at everything. Now, I’m at a point in my life where I’m really not mad about anything. And I wonder how the fuck I’m going to be in Dillinger Escape Plan and go on stage where these kids and people think we’re this ball of anger. But we’re not. I don’t feel that way anymore. I feel our energy has shifted to where now I feel even more energetic but it’s not in the fuck-you kind of way. It’s almost like a celebration of sorts, of being on top of your game, knowing we’re operating at our highest potential and knowing when I see people in the crowd with us there’s a communal vibe. They get it. We’re doing something really hard to get for most people, but the crowd is there and they get it and it’s just a different feeling for me now, man. I still feel as energetic, but not as pissed off at all. I don’t have that everything sucks attitude anymore. Even if everything does suck, I’m not upset about it (laughs).”

BW&BK;: As I’ve told other bands, when I was younger I used to listen to metal because of the anger and hate aspect, but now as I get older I listen to metal because of the energy of the music. The animosity is gone.

GP: “That’s true, man. And it sounds like weird, hippie bullshit and I’m sure if I was 13 and heard someone saying that I’d be like, ‘What? Fuck that, man!’ But I don’t ever want to feel like I’m doing theatre, or that I’m a caricature of something that I used to be. I had to feel where the energy was coming from, and it was just a different place. It’s still there, and it feels more genuine. For kids in the crowd they feel more with us rather than watching this spectacle of aggression. They’re not as much of a spectator anymore. I feel the same way about Converge. It’s very similar. When you see them it’s not just being pissed off, there’s this big community vibe of energy. It’s almost positivity, even though they sound like the end of the world. There’s still something weirdly uplifting about it. Maybe it’s overcoming adversity or knowing that you’re doing something difficult and still succeeding at it.”

BW&BK;: Dillinger is a very physical band with all the jumping and flailing on stage, and you guys are all in good shape. How do you guys keep in good shape on the road?

GP: “We’re in good shape on the outside (laughs). That’s the trick, because inside I feel like I’m 50 years old (laughs). It’s difficult, man. I try to eat super-healthy and obviously this is band is physically very demanding. None of us are people that take that for granted. Even being slightly anything when you go on stage fucks you in this band. If you’re anything off, if you’re dehydrated or anything you can feel it. We don’t take a lot of days off. We’ll play 30 dates and only take maybe one or two days off and aside from needing the energy every night, we’re constantly breaking bones and all that and you just have to keep rolling. Just this year I’ve broken my left hand, my right wrist and I tore my left rotator cuff but you just have to keep going. On tour, it’s very simple. I just eat well and I drink a lot of water. I don’t really beat the shit out of myself working out on tour, because we have to play. It’s more that when I’m at home I work out a lot and when I’m on tour I kind of just coast and eat well. Maybe some days I’ll do push-ups. A lot people probably think I’m going to the gym all the time. At home I am, but on tour I save everything for playing.”

BW&BK;: Your physical demeanour is intimidating, much like Dillinger’s music. Do you feel that it’s become part of the Dillinger aesthetic?

GP: “Yeah (laughs). It’s interesting because I used to be really aware of it. Eight years ago when I joined Dillinger, hardcore was in this place where it was all anorexic-looking guys in skinny jeans and girl haircuts. It was not cool at all to be in shape, and I didn’t understand it. I’m not coming at it from a jock perspective; I was just coming at it from the perspective of trying reach my optimum potential in everything I’m doing. So if I work out, I want to be in the best shape I can be in. If I want to learn something, I want to learn the most about it. I didn’t understand the view-point of it’s cool to not try to do your best at something. So if I’m going to work out, I’m going to work out a lot and try to do something. But over time, as shit shifted I realized that my physical presence on stage started to be synonymous with the music. Now, the intimidation that comes with it makes kids stoked on it. It’s like, ‘Greg from Dillinger is a beast!’ (laughs). It’s funny because six years ago I thought people were weirded out by it. They didn’t trust me because I wasn’t one of them. I was a guy who worked out a lot and they thought I was a different kind of guy. But that’s not true at all. It’s a ridiculous stereotype. I think of Henry Rollins, whose career has very much mimicked mine in a lot of different ways… he probably had to deal with a lot of the same shit. And I think it’s so silly because it means nothing how you look. In our band, like you said, it has become this thing. And, also like you were saying with the destroyer thing, that has combined with the intimidation thing and people have somehow aligned all that with how I look physically. I don’t consider myself that kind of person off-stage at all. I’m not aggressive or intimidating in my daily life. It’s something I have to get out while we’re playing, and that’s it. It’s interesting because when people see me off-stage they say, ‘You’re a lot shorter than I thought you were’ (laughs). People say that on stage I look seven feet tall. And that’s funny, because it’s all projection. We project something on stage, and when we’re off-stage and not this monster, people realise I’m just a guy. And sometimes I wonder what they expect me to be? A dickhead (laughs)? Do they expect me to tell them to fuck off when they come up to me (laughs)? Me and Ben (Weinman, Dillinger guitar player/founder) were in a Denny’s once after a show and there were all these kids there from the show, and they were all really young, like 16 or 17. They were watching us eat and I knew it was only a matter of time before they came over and said something. And when they did, they told us that they couldn’t believe we were eating breakfast food and laughing and joking around (laughs). And I said, ‘What did you think we were going to do? Go to Denny’s and start throwing around chairs?’ (laughs). But it’s funny because it goes to show that people really do think, when you walk off-stage, that what they just saw is you all the time.”